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Actually, as a student of science, I would say that science has proven us to be our physical bodies. Being that I believe in the Big Bang theory, I believe, as anyone who believes in the Big Bang theory must realize, that we are comprised of the material that emanated from that blast point. Everything in the Universe contains material from the birth of our Universe, even us. Science, has since proven what those materials are, atoms, molecules, etc.... In essence, science has managed to define us in our most rudimentary of forms. So would you however agree that we are not our bodies as we perceive our bodies. i.e. that our physical bodies are really mainly space between atoms; and some scientists posit that the "material" atoms do not ultimately exist, the basis of all that we perceive as "material" is Light ... And the same would apply to the so-called "physical", "material" world that surrounds us... ?

However, none of this discussion detracts in any way from the truth of one of your earlier statements, Anubis: that man ultimately must take responsibility for his own thoughts and actions ... Whether we are the soul, in my framework - or whether we are an accidental, or not accidental, by-product of the Big Bang in your framework ....

I think what you would call "morality" I would call "spirituality". And what you are calling "spirituality" would at least include what I would call the paranormal - and I would not call the paranormal "spirituality".

However: I do think we are more than the physical body and our own individual thoughts. Anubis, can I ask you this question: in your framework, when the physical body dies - then do you then cease to exist?

Thank you for this discussion.

Then how can you say we are our thoughts? That there is not a larger field of consciousness, a larger field of Being and Awareness than our thoughts and perceptions, i.e. a field larger than the ego?

To put it simply, it is because I think it is impossible to clear your mind of all thought. I have tried on several occasions to do this, just out of pure curiosity, and the one obstacle that I find impossible to surpass is the fact that you have to think about not having thoughts in order to avoid having thoughts. However, thinking about not having thoughts is thinking. From my own perception, it is impossible to will yourself into a state of thoughtlessness because the mind is always thinking. Even when we are asleep, the mind is hard at work.

So would you however agree that we are not our bodies as we perceive our bodies. i.e. that our physical bodies are really mainly space between atoms

I would partially agree, yes. I only say partially because, even though we do contain matter from the origins of our Universe, some of that matter has evolved to create something new. Although the root still exists in the sense that what we are now is descendant from what was, the fact that what was has changed so much over time that it can be classified as a different substance. I probably didn't make much sense just now.

some scientists posit that the "material" atoms do not ultimately exist, the basis of all that we perceive as "material" is Light ... And the same would apply to the so-called "physical", "material" world that surrounds us... ?

I have heard of this idea that you mentioned. However, I'm not convinced that it is true. To say that everything we perceive is but light, is to negate almost all of what science has worked to prove about our physical world and the Universe. If all things derive from light, then how is it that a black hole can exist? Moreover, would now be the cause of a black hole if this theory were correct?

Anubis, can I ask you this question: in your framework, when the physical body dies - then do you then cease to exist?

Yes. As grim an answer as that may be.

Anubis, can I ask you this question: in your framework, when the physical body dies - then do you then cease to exist?

Yes. As grim an answer as that may be. Good morning, Anubis! I don't see 'yes' as necessarily grim. Some people would consider Nothingness a rest.

My asking you your views on death was merely to know your position - and I thank you for your honest answer. My intention is not to convince you otherwise. I just think you are in for a very pleasant surprise.

I actually have a deep respect for people who lead moral, kind, selfless lives - and think there is no life beyond this physical life. I can only hope that I would be as saintly without my belief in an afterlife.

I do think it a harder path, a more difficult one - and also a noble one.

Then how can you say we are our thoughts? That there is not a larger field of consciousness, a larger field of Being and Awareness than our thoughts and perceptions, i.e. a field larger than the ego?

To put it simply, it is because I think it is impossible to clear your mind of all thought. I have tried on several occasions to do this, just out of pure curiosity, and the one obstacle that I find impossible to surpass is the fact that you have to think about not having thoughts in order to avoid having thoughts. However, thinking about not having thoughts is thinking. From my own perception, it is impossible to will yourself into a state of thoughtlessness because the mind is always thinking. Even when we are asleep, the mind is hard at work. A good answer. However: it is not impossible - in fact I personally find it very easy to do. You need to learn to meditate!!!

However, the goal of meditation is not to just be without thoughts; in fact, it can be a dangerous exercise. So do not try to meditate on your own - you (everyone) need a Teacher.

In any case: when I am thought free - I do not cease to exist. I retain Being and Awareness.

Therefore, I am not my thoughts.

good afternoon Anubis and Figaro. you last wrote:
[b]some scientists posit that the "material" atoms do not ultimately exist, the basis of all that we perceive as "material" is Light ... And the same would apply to the so-called "physical", "material" world that surrounds us... ?[/b]

"I have heard of this idea that you mentioned. However, I'm not convinced that it is true. To say that everything we perceive is but light, is to negate almost all of what science has worked to prove about our physical world and the Universe. If all things derive from light, then how is it that a black hole can exist? Moreover, would now be the cause of a black hole if this theory were correct?"

I hope you don't mind I will jump in the middle. Science shows us something: our world appears one way--things, solid, outside us etc.--but science tells us it is another way: energy, vibration, vast emptinesses. Also, our experience of sense world appears as outside the body; whereas science says the only information about an external world has to come through nerves to the brain. So right away, we have a disjunction between what we (almost all of us) believe to be true, and what science and investigation find is otherwise. Whether you die, leave the body, etc. we may not know. But we can all explore, right now, whether it is true that we are limited and localized to the body, or if this entire panorama of experience, inner and outer, is inseparably you: that the sense of boundary is only a wrong belief. You may recall someone named copernicus who posited, against common belief, that earth turned, not sun rose. A billion beliefs don't make it so.

Here is a simple activity that only requires a few minutes, sitting where you are. No belief in soul, spirit or otherwise is necessary. no mystical experience necessary--[other than the most miraculous of all experience which is the fact right now that experience happens..]. . just a willingness to be honest, to the core. Sit comfortably and notice the sound of birds outside, the view of the tree or sky. The words on the computer screen. Be aware of the feeling of sitting in the chair. be aware any sensations of your skin, body, muscles. Be aware of any thoughts or feelings "oh what is this about" or "far out" or .../ Be aware of your sense of self, whatever that is. Now for a while, notice that awareness moves freely from outermost vision of sky, sounds, to body, innermost thoughts or sense of "I." There is no boundary in experience, or knowledge, or awareness, between inner and outer.

This is a place we can start. we all believe that the world is out there, and "I" AM IN HERE. and some mysterious way the outside world becomes inner knowledge and experience. But IS THIS SO? Do we ever experience a real outer exterior world independent of our experience?

PS: Descartes got it backwards. We do not existe because we think. we only can think because we exist. And humans do not create life, nor does God or nature or anything. Because life is primary, beginningless. Forms of life, sure, these come and go. But no one saw the beginning of life, awareness, the primary fact of IS rather than ISN;t. these are truly primary presuppositions, and you cannot argue, discuss, experience or experiment without them...

much love and light.

Avery

What a beautiful and wise post, Avery. Thank you for joining this discussion, and I look forward to more posts from both you and Anubis.

But we can all explore, right now, whether it is true that we are limited and localized to the body, or if this entire panorama of experience, inner and outer, is inseparably you: that the sense of boundary is only a wrong belief. I agree. And as soon as we begin to think in terms of duality - now we have "Me" vs "Them". And that is when the pain begins ... the pain of separation, and at its worst, the pain of war ...

And humans do not create life, nor does God or nature or anything. Because life is primary, beginningless. Forms of life, sure, these come and go. But no one saw the beginning of life, awareness, the primary fact of IS rather than ISN'T. Hello again, Avery! Many would call this beginningless that you speak of = God. The Formless God. Or Mind, Consciousness.

some scientists posit that the "material" atoms do not ultimately exist, the basis of all that we perceive as "material" is Light ... And the same would apply to the so-called "physical", "material" world that surrounds us... ?

"I have heard of this idea that you mentioned. However, I'm not convinced that it is true. To say that everything we perceive is but light, is to negate almost all of what science has worked to prove about our physical world and the Universe. If all things derive from light, then how is it that a black hole can exist? Moreover, would now be the cause of a black hole if this theory were correct?"

Hello Anubis! Black Holes are a mystery that science cannot yet explain. In fact, the most recent information I have read on the subject posited that now the scientists are not even sure Black Holes exist; they are thinking it was a mistaken line of thought. In any case, there is no reason to think that Light is not the substratum of the material universe we humans perceive - that scientific information would not undo all other scientific work and exploration of the material universe. The perceived material universe is made of perceived "matter" that obeys certain natural, physical laws.

The conventional reality we perceive does have its own reality - or we would all fall through the floor and end up in China ... But there might be a substratum of Light that underlies the "material" universe, as some physicists believe. That does not interfere with even the absence of light we might one day find in a Black Hole of the material universe ... Black Holes would come under the category of conventional, "material" reality.

You need to learn to meditate!!!

With my daily schedule, that is a difficult task for me to accomplish. Plus, I'm far too fidgety to sit and meditate. I always have to be on the move, doing something.

I actually have a deep respect for people who lead moral, kind, selfless lives - and think there is no life beyond this physical life. I can only hope that I would be as saintly without my belief in an afterlife.

Well, if I may be frank, I would hardly consider myself a saintly person.

.... As an aside to this post, I feel like I've done this before. I seem to be experiencing a bit of Deja Vu at the moment.